Showing posts with label Robert Pickton Murder Trial. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Robert Pickton Murder Trial. Show all posts

Saturday, December 22, 2007

Pickton Trial Part 6: Verdict Day

That Sunday morning began like so many mornings. The standard "walk in" shots of the cast of characters that we have become so familiar with.
Sue did her hit into Newsnet, the discussion between her and the host back in Toronto centered around the question of a potential record breaking deliberations. When the hit finished, I began to settle in for the long day ahead. I had brought lots of entertainment to pass the time between hits. Our next one wouldn't be until late in the afternoon.

I went up to our office, ( yes we have a bureau office just a stone's throw away up the long stone stairway of Begbie Square) to warm up and grab a diet Pepsi. I sat down for a second to shoot the shit with Gary T who was tech. producing today.when all at once he said to me as he checked his blackberry: "Verdict!"
"Bullshit" I responded. Hell I was just down stairs and Tapper had a reputation for being a bit of a joker.
As he turned toward me, and I caught the expression on his face, I realized the boy who cried wolf was not joking.
I leaped up out of my chair and ran down the long and treacherous stairway. It must of been quite a sight seeing a short fat guy sprinting down stairs taking them three and four at a time. I was at my camera in less than one minute.
God love Sue, she already was mic-ing herself up. Before I knew it we were breaking into programming and up on Newsnet.
This was it, the day that we had waited for nine days for. There would be a verdict. Word spreading like wild fire to families and lawyers holed up nearby. It would take near 40 minutes for the Court to reconvene. All the while Sue was on the air. Calmly reporting the excitement that was enveloping the area.

Sue

I knew that we would be having guests and had a mixer set up, but because of audio routing, I would need a break to bring up her mic and the guest mic together. At the rate and appetite for information, Toronto was not about to break away for me long enough to make it happen. So I decided to deep six the mixer and simply go with a hand held and she would have to conduct her conversations with guests "old school" single stick mic. It was a decision I was glad to have made. The less complicated the better as the situation was very very fluid.

Tamar, our chase producer, was busy hunting down guests and working two cell phones notifying our prearranged guests (experts in law and DNA sciences) to make their way to us. All the while Sue is cranking it out never missing a beat.
It looked like we were going to be on the air for a very long time. As I squinted into my viewfinder, I congratulated myself for having the foresight to have powered the camera with an AC pack as opposed to using a battery. That feeling quickly fleeting as speaking of batteries, I realized that the double A's in the wireless Sue had on might be a bit long in the tooth.
"Shit" I thought, how the hell am I going to change batteries on the fly, live??

I grabbed a pair of AA's and crawled on my hands and knees over to her. I asked Tamar to relay to the control room in Toronto to have the host ask a "long question". They did and it gave me just enough time to switch in fresh batteries.

The temperature was just above freezing outside at our broadcast location, and here it was maybe 10 minutes into our coverage and I am sweating like I'm in the freakin' desert. All the while Sue is doin' her thing. Giving the viewers a great performance and exquisite oratory. I was in the presence of greatness.

By now all media outlets were on the air and the anticipation of just what the verdict would hold was at a climax.
"The jury is just now entering the court" Sue proclaimed. It was indeed very close now. Blackberries all over the courtyard were no doubt buzzing with information coming from inside.
"Not Guilty!" she said as the information was being read off the screen.
Then she said" but wait, we are now getting information that the Not Guilty verdict is for 6 counts of first degree, Guilty on counts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and yes 6 counts of second degree murder"
There it was, a conviction. But the drama was just beginning. While we were on the air the streets had been blocked off by police. I did notice a sudden increase in police presence on the square, but it had not registered as I had been dealing with my own situation. It was not long before the families and court watchers came out of the court past the small crowd of TV cameras and newspaper photographers.
Sue describing this for the viewers giving everyone a sense of actually being there. The families came out past the waiting media and over to the CTV local tent. there they had formed a circle and began a solemn ceremony, lighting candles, remembering their loved ones, the six victims. It was a very moving moment, one that when I look back and remember it, brings goose bumps to the back of my neck. The impromptu gathering was shot from another camera position. All the while Sue respectfully staying quiet only occasionally interjecting a poignant observation to our viewing audience.

Families gather for a candle light ceremony remembering their loved ones

Sue on the air with a family member, while in the background an emotional embrace

There were tears and there were hugs. The anguish written on many faces. Yet relief. These folks had indeed been through allot, yet took the time to come to us and share their thoughts and reactions to Sue. It is something that has always humbled me as a story teller, the willingness for people who are hurting, speaking to us under the glare of my lens and sharing with us raw feelings that are very personal and pure.

Sue handled each guest, be it a relative of one of the victims or an invited guest "expert" as if they were her own family. Often the conversation was emotional. But her gentle ways comforted those who spoke to us. Her interviewing mined those golden nuggets of information giving us glance into someones heart. It truly was a privilege to behold.

Sue speaking with the sisters of Georgina Papin one of Robert Pickton's victims.

The Newsnet animal is a hungry one however and the coverage was wall to wall. It was the biggest national story of the day and the Net's appetite was ravenous. Tamar was hustling and wrangling guests for Sue. When it was finally over for CTV Newsnet, Sue had been on the air for just over eight straight hours. Then after a quick sip of coffee she did a hit with CP24 and Court TV Canada.

Crown Prosecutor Mike Petrie speaks with Sue Sgambati during her eight hours on Newsnet. It was Mr. Petrie's first one on one after his pooled presser.

Sue enjoying that sip of Timmy's finest just before she did her CP24 and Court TV Canada commitments.

I have been in this business for almost 27 years and I have never seen such an incredible performance by a single broadcaster. Eight hours, never missing a beat, never stumbling a line or fact, never flustered. God damn that was amazing and I was proud to have witnessed it first hand.

Needless to say, we all had a wrap dinner that night, toasting our team. It was bitter sweet as now that the verdict was over, so too was my time with Sue.
The girls were being released from the story after 3 full weeks. Now they could return to friends and family back at World Headquarters. Sue got out on the first flight home to return to her family and to her duties as host and producer for Court TV Canada. Tamar left later the next day and after a couple of days off returned to her duties in the control room.

Our Newsnet team -Tamar Vartanian , Murman, and Sue Sgambati - posing for one final group shot at the end of Verdict Day

For me the Pickton trial had one final chapter, and it would come in the form of the sentence. I was reassigned to local coverage and teamed up with both Lisa and Janet for the shows. It was a great way to finish what was a very tough assignment.

Wednesday, December 19, 2007

Pickton Trial Part 5: The Concert

By the end of that first weekend of jury deliberations, energy levels were low. I recall just wanting to get home when the night was done and crashing to sleep. I knew full well that the 6 am wake up alarm would come soon enough.

And it did. I arrived on that Tuesday a bit agitated because of a household disagreement that privacy laws forbid me from revealing. Well they don't really, but if Mrs. Murman reads this blog, I would end up in a world of shit and quite frankly I'm not much in the mood for that at this point in time.

The day progressed very well until one of my friends from Global National showed up.

"Hey Murman guess what??" he asked (more like taunted)
"What?" I answered.
"I'm goin' to the Van Halen concert tomorrow night!" he replied
"Shit, you rat bastard, I couldn't get tickets and besides it looks like I'm stuck here anyway."
I had wanted to see these guys since 1981 when they made the swing through the Maritimes. I had tickets then, but the show was cancelled in Moncton as I recall due to a stage /venue issue.
I looked at him with envy and contempt for rubbing it in that he was going. Especially after the mood I was in from the aforementioned "domestic dispute".
"Murman, I gotta friend that has an extra ticket." he says.
"Get him on the phone!" I demanded.
He did and after a brief conversation, I had myself a ticket outta Begbie Square. My demeanor instantly improving.

The day of the concert, I was able to get someone to cover my late hit. It would feel nice to go somewhere other than the Courthouse in New Westminster even if it were only for a few hours.

The seats were good ones, Al's friend sold me the ticket for face value. It proved to be money well spent.

The show begins with Eddie's son Wolfgang on Bass, David, Alex and Eddie rockin' with "You Really Got Me Now" (photo Vancouver Sun)

The show began with the familiar riff of Eddie playing "You Really Got Me" and David Lee Roth prancing down a long curving ramp waving a giant red flag. It was on. After 26 years, I finally got to see Van Halen. For the next two hours it felt I was back in high school 1979. I pumped my arms with every beat. Enjoyed every song. I knew them all by heart.
Eddie had brought his "A" game and so too, did David. It was freakin' great. For that two hours there was no court, no deliberations, no wait and no worries about what the hell we were going to do when a verdict came down.

Eddie = Guitar Hero! brought his "A" game (photo Vancouver Sun)

Yes it was quite a show, good escapism and when the show was over, there had not been one single song that I had wished they had played. They played it all. Now if I could only hear. It took two days for the ringing to finally stop. The show gave me the energy to see this assignment to it's end.

It was one of the best shows I have ever seen ( Photo Vancouver Sun)
,,,,You really got me!


Oh ya, thanks Al !

Pickton Trial Part 4 :The Long Wait

After 10 days of closing arguments, judge's charges to the jury and countless live hits about the proceedings, a milestone was reached. The case went to the jury, meaning the deliberations would begin. For all of us covering the trial it meant that we were finally in the "home stretch" of this marathon trial.

This happened late in the afternoon of Friday November 30th. Naturally there was an air of excitement as we reported live into each of our respective shows. I recall after our live hits, giving a celebratory hug to Janet. She had been on this case a very, very long time and now finally it seemed an end was within sight.

The night the Jury went into Deliberations, CTV Camera Steve Murray, Reporter Janet Dirks and Yours Truly pose for a celebratory photo

The jury was sequestered and now the long wait would begin. Naturally predictions of how long and when the jury would return a verdict ran throughout Begbie Square. Poolies started to flock to their bookies and place their bets. Most of us thought a Tuesday or a Wednesday verdict would be ideal. Of course any one's guess was as good as any. But what this new phase meant, was now we would be required to be at a constant state of readiness as long as the jury was deliberating. Hence, the long wait.

During this "long wait" we were still required to file. How many times could one report that "deliberations continue" or how many different ways could it be stated that "no one really knows for sure" how long this could take, our on air talents would indeed be tested.

The jury came up with a workable deliberation schedule- 9:30 am break for lunch at 1:30 till 3 pm and then go until 8pm finishing for the day. It made for a long day of being at a "constant state of TV readiness".

As the days began to pass, the weather went from fall to winter in about 6 hours. The snow began to coat the courtyard during that first weekend of deliberations. The heater became everybody's best friend and since yours truly had the kick ass flame thrower, guess who was "Mr. Popular"

The snow flies as CTV NewsNet/ Court TV's Sue Sgambati prepares to tell the viewers "The Jury is still deliberating". That's CTV News Net chase producer Tamar Vartanian on the phone.

The families of the victims, who by now were very familiar to us all began this "long wait" with good spirits, but as the days wore on, so to did the emotions of the group. There were times that one or more of them would come on over and get what ever they were feeling off their chest. It was almost as if I had a sign just outside the tent that said: Psychology- 5 cents. It was harmless, but over time it wore a person down. I did my best to be friendly after all they were going through some of the worst times in their lives, I suppose listening wasn't going to kill me. But their chain smoking might,,,,

One of the families, the Frey's, who daughter was among the murder counts that the jury was working on, really touched us all at the CTV broadcast tent. Each morning as Lynn would arrive, she would walk past the phalanx of cameras to our tent. In her hand she had a bag filled with pastries and muffins.
"I brought you some goodies" she would say " You guys have to be here too, and I appreciate it"
"That was very kind of you Mrs Frey, but you don't have too,," I would say
"I want too" she replied.
"Thank-you" was all I could manage to answer.

Janet speaks to Lynn Frey (in the red coat)

But as the long wait continued, the spirits of each of us began to tire. Stories, not related to the trial, lead the nightly news. Our instincts were calling us away from the Square. We all needed a change in scenery. We all wanted our lives back. Visiting journalists missed home and the comfort of their own beds. Local journalists although sleeping in their own blankets, lived and breathed this story. It's toll on household conversations, family activities and mental health cannot be overlooked.

Yet with this endless wait, there were the high points. The laughs and war stories of our colleagues. But you know it's been a long wait when those war stories begin to repeat.
We just all prayed for a verdict, the sooner the better.

One of the most remarkable days began with rain, heavy rain. So much so that one of the media tents collapsed overnight. As the day continued the dark clouds continued to gather. The mood in the square was tense at best. But that afternoon just before a break, the sun began to shine from the west. It was low in the sky and with the heavy showers of just moments ago, a rainbow appeared over the courthouse. Then a second rainbow. Brilliant and uplifting to all. Families saw this as a sign of good news to come. The rainbow didn't elaborate on the time line of this "good news to come". So the long wait would continue.


A symbol of hope appears over the New West Court House

Sunday, December 16, 2007

Pickton Trial Part 3: The Blessing

My days at the trial usually began with a stop at the gas station. Filling up gas cylinders for the heater. When I would arrive at Begbie Square, a lone security guard would greet me and he would help me unzip the tent.

The first order of business would be to get the heater fired up and take the chill out of the tent. Then I would begin to wire up the camera and position the lights. Each and every morning brought an early hit into CP24 and then a hit into CTV NewsNet. Later as the day wore on, more hits, some ENG work (shooting the "ins" and "outs") and finishing the day with local live hits into the 5 and the 6, ending with a NewsNet live. It was a routine that lasted nearly 3 full weeks. The days went from 7 am till nearly 9 each night. This kind of an assignment could grind you down in a hurry if it were not for the gift that the TV Gods had given me.

That gift came in the form of three very talented journalists. Two , Lisa Rossington and Janet Dirks, I have the privilege of working with everyday at CTV in Vancouver. The other, from the home office in Toronto. Our first meeting was on that first Monday of closing arguments (nearly 4 weeks ago now).


CTV British Columbia reporter Lisa Rossington. She had been on this case since the original raid on the Pickton Farm.


CTV's Janet Dirks, she too has covered this case since the beginning. A kinder person you will not find anywhere.

She arrived that morning finding the CTV tent and asked: "Are you Dave??"
"No", I said "He's up in the office, I'm Murray the Camera Guy, can I help you?"

She introduced herself: "Hi , I'm Sue Sgambati, I believe I have a live hit with you in a few minutes."


Court TV Canada's Sue Sgambati, an instant hit here at the CTV Broadcast Center in
New Westminster, British Columbia


Her assignment was to fill the live requirements for Court TV Canada, CP24 and CTV NewsNet until the end of the trial. A tall order indeed, but one we would both relish.
As the days wore on, our conversations revealed that we had much in common. I discovered that she was very much an "old school" journalist. All about the story, a storyteller. Not like some in our business, about themselves. She was very much a team player, something again highly prized in this business, not to mention this assignment. She had a marvelous sense of humour, something that would help us through some of the mentally fatiguing times that would lie ahead. There was not a day that passed without the two of us sharing in a mind cleansing belly laugh. And through laughter and conversation, we bonded.


Sue preparing to do another live hit for CTV Newsnet

Yes it indeed was a blessing to have been given such a pro to work with. When asked by a producer in Toronto for a 3 minute "breathless" to tape. She would glance at her notepad, give a 3-2-1 and rattle off 3 minutes to the second, on the first take!
Sue fit right in with the team. I found myself wanting to call her bosses in Toronto and asking if we could keep her. Of course we could not, but you can't blame a guy for trying.

Thursday, December 13, 2007

Pickton Trial Part 2: The Campfire

One of the lessons learned from our first experience last winter from Begbie Square was it was freakin' cold no matter what the weather. We had rented a construction heater to heat the tents last winter. They were so successful that we purchased one.

It was money well spent. One thing about waiting long periods of time outside a courthouse, is, it's better to stay warm and dry. Nothing makes a shoot any more miserable than a cold/ wet reporter and operator.

The device is fueled by propane gas. Stopping at the gas station every morning filling a cylinder for the heater became a daily ritual. Our flame throwing heat generating marvel became the envy of all of our competitors. They too invested in heat technology, but settled for smaller "Camping" heaters. Still colleagues from the other shelters always found their way into mine enjoy the Sahara-like temps at the CTV Broadcast Center. Just part of that little extra service we like to provide at CTV Broadcast Services--Heat.

Chester, a Global Cameraman, warms his hands during the long evenings waiting for a Verdict

The burner became a center piece especially during the evening hours as we awaited a verdict. Folks would gather, sometimes bringing along a chair, but often just standing around, shooting the shit and telling war stories around the campfire. Often we would just bemoan the fact it was day number whatever and wishing this story would just come to an end so we could all get our lives back.

The lads have brought their chairs, huddled around the Campfire, but what are they watching???

Hockey Night in Canada on a 7 inch monitor!






Wednesday, December 12, 2007

Pickton Trial Part 1: The Commitment

Back in January of this year a trial began with opening remarks from lawyers for the Crown outlining the case against Robert Pickton. He was charged with the murders of 26 women. This case against him would involve 6 of those 26 in what would become a history making trial of Canada's worst serial murders.

Needless to say this trial would attract a lot of media attention.

To accommodate the needs of the TV medium, a tent city, Camp Pickton, was assembled on the courtyard. Each media tent had been serviced with electrics and wired for live broadcasts. This would become my home for the first weeks of the trial. But as the proceedings wore into the summer months and interest for the daily minutia of expert testimony wained, it was decided to pack up the camp for the summer. The Camp would only reappear for the final stages of the trial.

Those final stages began four long weeks ago.

Dave, my Tech Supervisor had asked me to commit to finishing the trial for our organization. Most of my colleagues avoided the courtyard of New Westminster, like the plague. Our station had two reporters, Lisa Rossington and Janet Dirks, who had followed this story since Police first raided Pickton's farm some 6 years ago, had made the commitment. I felt that I should step up and finish this trial. By doing so, I knew it would likely cost me flight weeks, but it was something I felt was important to experience. The decision was actually quite an easy one to make.

Camp Pickton, Begbie Square New Westminster BC.

My role was to arrange, manage and shoot from our broadcast positions on the courtyard called Begbie Square. CTV would have two tent positions, side by side. One for National and News Net requirements, the other for Local CTV positions. I have always enjoyed the challenge of setting up shop at a location that is not exactly TV friendly. The kick for me is making it functional and making it work. Dave assigned me to the National tent or I liked to refer to it: The CTV Broadcast Center. I would also shoot ENG when required.

A look inside the "CTV Broadcast Center"

It had all the makings for an epic TV adventure. It would have it's moments, good and bad. To paraphrase a line for one of my favorite movies- "All I wanted was a mission, and for my sins they gave me one, and when it was over, I damn sure didn't want another."

But I had made the Commitment, and it was one I would be tested to keep.

Tuesday, January 23, 2007

Camp Pickton: Day 1

Camp Pickton came to life very early for my colleagues Dave, Pete, Kate and Carrie. The beast known as CTV Newsnet was hungry and needed to be fed. Kate would provide live hits for Newsnet as well as local. It would be a long day and we all knew that.

The planning for Camp Pickton began many months ago. We have had large trials before. Ones involving scores of reporters and cameras. A few years ago some of you might remember there was an assault trial in Vancouver that garnered North America wide attention. The trial involved NHL hockey player Marty McSorley.
At the time no one from the Court Services or the Sheriff's Department knew just what kinds of problems this trial would present. Large and I mean large, moving scrums of TV cameras, photographers, radio reporters, news paper reporters etc, etc. Following Mr. McSorley in and out of court. People clamoring , jockey-ing, pushing, shoving to get a clip, comment, a shot, a better shot. It was a zoo. Add to the mix that on one day during Marty's case, Wayne Gretzky showed up. Instant circus. There were safety issues, there were seating issues inside the courthouse, it was a logistical nightmare.
The next Circus that came to town was the Todd Bertuzzi trial ( I know, all the bad ass NHL stuff happens right here in Vancouver) This time court services had a plan. This time an attempt to coordinate all assembled media so that all would have access to a reasonable photo op of Bertuzzi entering and leaving court. A podium was set up by court services for statements and questions to Defence and Crown Council. It seemed orderly. Everyone got what they wanted at the end of the day.

Now we have this Pickton Trial. Court Services taking what they have learned from previous hi profile trials began an open dialogue with reps from each of the local media and representatives of national and international media. The result: Camp Pickton. Multiple court rooms for media, family and public. Uni mic positions and pool feeds to all who entered the pool agreement from two podiums. A tent city of "Live" locations in the courtyard with fibre optic drops and electrical service to each tent. Parking is very limited around the courthouse and it's geographic location doesn't provide a path for terrestrial microwave links or a very good look at the southern sky for satellite access. Yet the infrastructure was installed and we now have a media village right there outside of the New Westminister Court House.

Our operation managed to secure nearby office and knowing that this trial that is expected to last a year, transformed that office space to a functional news bureau with edit bays, work stations and engineering support for the CTV Team covering this trial.

Mobile Operations Supervisor and tech "Yoda" Dave Alexander smile for the camera during the early morning hours of Day 1.

My day began at 7am at Camp Pickton. I was tasked to relieve Pete mid morning at our Newsnet set. I would be doing Live hits with Kate, Todd, Lisa and a number of guests that would make up the content of the special coverage on Newsnet.


The activity around the front of the tent city, awaiting the arrival of the Accused, his council, Crown and the families of the victims. It wasn't long after this shot that it all began, fast and furious. By 9:30 everyone is in the court and the ENG guys go into hurry up and wait mode. Those of us on live cameras were suppling hits into respective networks.

A couple of our rivals gather for a light moment during a break in the activity in the tent position next door to mine.

Susie G of CTV seeking shelter from the rain. Susie was acting field producer. She has been working on this case longer than anyone I know. She is usually seen with a camera on her shoulder, but an injury and cast on her shooting hand has sidelined her. Susie knows all of the players in this drama and provides all of our ENG crew with intel on who's who as they walk into the courthouse.

Meanwhile back inside the bureau, editor Tim Latham (Hack) waits for the first tapes to come in and edit. Tim would edit a DNS piece and Janet's local piece before the day would be done. He's giving me the "why the hell aren't you shooting something" look during this photo.

Kate C just before her umteenth hit into Newsnet. She has been going since 3am and didn't stop until the end.

A shot of ENG camera op Steve H (without hat). He was our pool guy this week. He's shooting one of the family statements. His camera is fibred to all pool participants' operations centers.

Lisa R writing her story for the top of the 6. This is the Bureau

Shot of the crew getting set for CTV News @ 5 with Colleen Christie. Floor Director: Jim W (seated) Gary R: Camera Colleen (back to camera) and Engineer Rob K. We also did the 6PM show from this location.

CTV National crew Correspondent: Lisa L, ENG Tec/Camera: John J, Vancouver Bureau Chief: Todd B and local CTV Tech Gary T as we get set for Lisa's hit into the CTV National News with Lloyd Robertson.

Janet and Murman, just glad that day one was over.


When the day was over I had lost count as to how many live hits we did. Most of our reporters had crash edits but all made their slots. It wouldn't be day one with out crash edits. It rained constantly and if it hadn't been for our heaters at our live locations it would have been intolerable. The hi lite of the day for me was doing a hit with Todd B into the ATV 6 PM show ( Halifax) Todd and I both worked for ATV back in the day. It was great to speak with Greg Campbell Tech Supervisor at CTV Halifax, even though it was via an IFB and coord line.

We gotta pace ourselves, this is supposed to last a year.


Sunday, January 21, 2007

Trial of the Century

This promises to be a crazy week. California had the OJ trial and "Camp OJ". Here in Vancouver, more specifically New Westminister, we have the Pickton Trial and the soon to be dubbed "Camp Pickton".
For those of you not familiar with the case, Robert William Pickton is accused in the deaths and disappearances of scores of women from the downtown East Side of Vancouver. This trial he is being prosecuted on only 6 of the murders. The trial is expected to last for at least a year. It is said to be the biggest trial of it's kind in Canadian history. He is being tried by Jury.

There are something like 300 journalists accredited for this trial. They come from as far away as Germany. Needless to say all of the Canadian Networks and many representing the US networks will be here as well.

My part in all of this began a couple of days ago with a prep piece on how the Sheriffs dept is getting ready for this Trial of the Century.
Monday morning it really begins, with the first day opening remarks by both the Crown and the Defence. I will be blogging about my time on this assignment, but not about the legal or about the testimony. Hell I have no plans to be inside the court room regardless. But I do hope to give you, the reader ( and I thank you all for coming back to read the ramblings of a wanna be writer) a sense of what it is like to cover such a story.
My function will be a live position, handling CTV Newsnet, CTV National and CTV Local hits into the various shows. I spent the day today with my colleagues Dave Alexander and Gary Tapp, lighting, faxing, checking and double checking our covered camera positions just outside the courthouse doors.
It all begins for TV anyway at 3AM, pacific, the crew call for shift #1 at "Camp Pickton". Let the Drama, Begin.

I guess I should get some sleep,,,,,,,,,